Dr. Alan Sabrosky: Thank you very much, Mark. A pleasure to be here.
AS: Mark, we had talked about this earlier and, you know, my feelings are that I'm perfectly willing to debate issues with anyone on any subject. Most of us have different views of things and none of us, I think, believes we have the entire truth for ourselves. Anyone who does is a fool.
On the subject that I wrote this time, it caught my attention as well because if there is anything that is more significant it is loyalty: loyalty to country, loyalty to people, loyalty to constitution. And to my displeasure and my shame ~ because I have some Jewish relatives, none of whom are Zionist ~ a large majority of American Jews give their allegiance to a foreign country.
Some of my [American] relatives are German, some are Irish, and all of them have a measure of allegiance to those cultures, but it's not a political allegiance. It's a social allegiance. It's like, "We're going to stand up on St Patrick's Day," or "We're going to stand up on Oktoberfest," or "We're going to celebrate this," and we're proud of being German, or Irish, or whatever it happens to be.
"Truth is truth, their allegiance is to a foreign country, they are traitors," then we're dishonest to ourselves.
AS: But it's even more than that, Mark. I've had a bitter argument with one of my Jewish cousins who moved to Israel and kept an American citizenship. If someone loves another country enough to go there: more power to them. They go, that's it ~ they're gone.
That's treason. I will tell you right now: if Palestinians had the same influence in America I would oppose them in the same way. I don't care what the country is, what the allegiance is, what matters to me is that if you are American, you love this country first, last, and that's the end of it.
Mark, I don't think at the beginning of the show that you read the Doctor's credentials off. I wish you would, because it means a lot, and it means a lot to me to hear them.
MG: Absolutely, and I will do that right now since I'm about to launch into reading this excellent article. Alan Sabrosky (Ph.D, University of Michigan) is a ten-year US Marine Corps veteran and a graduate of the US Army War College.
Now, not only that ~ Dr. Sabrosky correct me if I'm wrong here ~ not only are you a graduate of the US Army War College, but you were a director of studies there for some period of time ~ is that correct?
Dr. Sabrosky, I cannot think of an article that I have read in recent memory that basically sums up the problem that we are dealing with right now as accurately and as succinctly as this essay that you have written.
AS: It is, and it's more than that, Mark. What we need to stand up and say is that not only did they attack the USS Liberty, they did 9/11. They did it.
You know, Phil, I don't denigrate what happened to USS Liberty in the slightest ~ you understand that ~ but for most Americans what happened to the USS Liberty, or in Vietnam, was history. Now this is history. You know, they can be concerned about it, but they're not going to get mad about it.
9/11 has led directly to 60,000 Americans dead and wounded, God knows how many hundreds of thousands of people in other countries that we've killed or wounded or made homeless, and it's an on-going sore. It's not your sore from the USS Liberty; it's not my sore from Vietnam. Both of us have those, both of us care about. But this is an open wound.
And what Americans need to understand is that they did it. They did it. And if they do understand that, Israel's going to disappear. Israel will flat-ass disappear from this Earth.
AS: Well, I can tell you it's being read by some people in Headquarters Marine Corps and at the Army War College. I sent it off to them this past week and I've had some long discussions with people up there, and there's some really, really unhappy people.
And I will tell you frankly ~ I don't think either one of you has any Jewish ancestry. I do. You know, I have one grandparent who's Jewish. As Phil Weiss from Mondoweiss were talking about it ~ he's a Jewish guy who puts a lot of critical stuff out there on Israel ~ and I said for the Orthodox Rabbinate I'm not a Jew. For the Nazis, I've been there.
When I took my oath 51 years ago to the United States Marine Corps, no one promised us life. No one did. They promised us duty and loyalty and service ~ and maybe death. And that's how they talked to us in 1959. I don't think they talk to them that way anymore. But in 1959 they did, and if my death were a requirement for the saving of America ~ well, hell, I could've died in Vietnam.
And I understand wholeheartedly what's in your heart, because I have it my heart. I didn't learn it by becoming a sailor as such, but I learned it through the grace of God for saving our ship, I learned it through scholars like you, I've learned it through good friends like Mark Glenn and my shipmates - and I've learned it through actions of Israel.
Now, technically speaking, we are at war with her because she is at war with us. She is out to destroy us. We just haven't figured it out yet.
My personal prediction is that probably - again, sooner than any of us realize or would like to envision ~ Israel is going pull off another 9-11. She's going to pull off another USS Liberty.
So, in as far as what you two fellows were just talking about, that we need to talk about this, I'm going to offer another theory here for discussion.
I think that Israel has been watching all of this and has been saying,
What they understand, I think, as well, is that their leverage is on the political appointments. Their leverage is not in the uniformed services.
AS: There are no innocent! [laughter]
MG: I'd like to know a little bit more about this. I mean, these conversations that you're having with your colleagues who are still serving in uniform. What is the reaction on their part when you tell them things like this?
I mean, getting into arguments about who was flying what, and where they were, and whether there was nano-thermite ~ those things are true, but they're incidental. The thing that's necessary is to tell people: three buildings went down; the third was not hit by a plane, it was wired for controlled demolition, therefore, all of them were wired for controlled demolition.
And then Ray Davis - he was a commandant of the United States Marine Corps. He directly said - this is of course not going into 911 ~ that the USS Liberty was not a mistaken identity, it was an act of cold-blooded, premeditated murder. So there are people out there in the military.
Now these guys were retired at the time - but when you're educating people, like you're doing, Alan, people who serve in the military now, you're exactly right: they just don't know, because nobody knows. It's been hid up.
MG: Dr. Sabrosky, I wanted to ask you - since we are to a certain degree prognosticating today, and making predictions ~ what do you think is going to happen here?
I mean, I was having a conversation with someone the other day about this situation with Iran, and the fact of the matter is that irrespective of whether or not Iran is actually actively engaged in building a nuclear weapon, or not, the fact of that is that Israel cannot afford to have this war not take place.
AS: We're going to have a war with Iran. And my guess is that the Arab Street is going to explode.
AS: And American forces, American units, like 5th fleet headquarters in Bahrain, the rest of it ~ there's going to be a casualty list that we're not even going to care to think about.
AS: Yes. No question at all. And in fact if the Iraqi resistance hadn't been so strong it would have already happened in the second Bush administration.
MG: So all of this reticence, reluctance ~ whatever you want to call it ~ what appears to be reticence and reluctance on the part of the Obama administration ~ what do you think is going on? I mean, look, just this past week we had some what I consider pretty dramatic things being said on the part of the Obama administration with regards to Israel with the settlements and what-not.
AS: The Obama Administration hasn't withheld a single dollar, a single plane ~ nothing. Words are cheap.
The Israelis made a tactical error in that they insulted Biden ~ and Biden is not one of my favorite people, but he is a street smart guy and he doesn't like being humiliated. This is a given.
I'm pretty sure that the pattern was:
I thought, boy, when you look at the kind of protests that took place ~ and I was in college at the time of the first Gulf War ~ when you look at the kind of protests that took place during Vietnam ~ and of course on college you had a few people grumbling and saying this and saying that but, in general, the Neo-Cons really played the whole Vietnam thing beautifully ~ if such a word can be used for something as tragic as that.
Nothing to me is more important than loyalty to or allegiance to my country. Nothing is. But that requires my country and my government to also behave in an honorable fashion. Our government, today, does not behave in an honorable fashion.
Alan Sabrosky (Ph.D., University of Michigan) is a writer and consultant specializing in national and international security affairs. In December 1988, he received the Superior Civilian Service Award after more than five years of service at the U.S. Army War College as Director of Studies, Strategic Studies Institute, and holder of the General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research.
He is listed in WHO'S WHO IN THE EAST (23rd ed.).A Marine Corps Vietnam veteran and a 1986 graduate of the U.S. Army War College, Dr. Sabrosky's teaching and research appointments have included the United States Military Academy, the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Middlebury College and Catholic University; while in government service, he held concurrent adjunct professorships at Georgetown University and the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS).
Dr. Sabrosky has lectured widely on defense and foreign affairs in the United States and abroad.You can email Dr. Alan Sabrosky at: firstname.lastname@example.org
Nationalism in most countries and cultures can have both positive and negative aspects, unifying a people and sometimes leading them against their neighbors. Extremism can emerge, and often has, at least in part in almost every nationalist/independence movement I can recall (e.g., the French nationalist movement had The Terror, Kenya's had the Mau Mau, etc.).
But whereas extremism in other nationalist movements is an aberration, extremism in Jewish nationalism is the norm, pitting Zionist Jews (secular or observant) against the goyim (everyone else), who are either possible predator or certain prey, if not both sequentially.
The differences between Jewish nationalism (Zionism) and that of other countries and cultures here I think are fourfold:
Zionism is a real witches' brew of xenophobia, racism, ultra-nationalism, and militarism that places it way outside of a "mere" nationalist context ~ for example, when I was in Ireland (both parts) I saw no indication whatsoever that the PIRAs or anyone else pressing for a united Ireland had a shred of design on shoving Protestants into camps or out of the country, although there may well have been a handful who thought that way ~ and goes far beyond the misery for others professed by the Nazis.
Zionism undermines civic loyalty among its adherents in other countries in a way that other nationalist movements (and even ultra-nationalist movements like Nazism) did not - e.g., a large majority of American Jews, including those who are not openly dual citizens, espouse a form of political bigamy called "dual loyalty" (to Israel & the US) that is every bit as dishonest as marital bigamy, attempts to finesse the precedence they give to Israel over the US (lots of Rahm Emanuels out there who served in the IDF but NOT in the US armed forces), and has absolutely no parallel in the sense of national or cultural identity espoused by any other definable ethnic or racial group in America - even the Nazi Bund in the US disappeared once Germany and the US went to war, with almost all of its members volunteering for the US armed forces.
The "enemy" of normal nationalist movements is the occupying power and perhaps its allies, and once independence is achieved, normal relations with the occupying power are truly the norm, but for Zionism almost everyone out there is an actual or potential enemy, differing only in proximity and placement on its very long list of enemies (which is now America's target list).
Almost all nationalist movements (including the irredentist and secessionist variants) intend to create an independent state from a population in place or to reunite a separated people (like the Sudeten Germans in the 1930s) ~ it is very rare for it to include the wholesale displacement of another indigenous population, which is far more common of successful colonialist movements as in the US ~ and perhaps a reason why most Americans wouldn't care too much about what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians even if they DID know about it, is because that is no different than what Europeans in North America did to the Indians/Native Americans here in a longer & more low-tech fashion.
The late General Moshe Dayan, who ~ Zionist or not ~ remains an honored part of my own Pantheon of military heroes, allegedly observed that Israel's security depended on its being viewed by others as a mad dog. He may have been correct.